Fluorescent T9 Circline Light Fixtures

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Smucky
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Re: Fluorescent T9 Circline Light Fixtures

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NinjaPoodle wrote: Tue Jul 29, 2025 9:31 pm
Smucky wrote: Tue Jul 29, 2025 3:14 pm But thinking about cutting some vent holes into the glass shade. I got a bit for it. And an old beer bottle to practice on :sly:

But still, took forever to find that shade and I paid $47 for it. Would hate to break it :ugh: but in my mind some vent holes look so aesthetic :science:
Don't you destroy the look of the glass lamp shade if you drill in them?
Perhaps, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder :sun:

Question is, do I drill the holes out in the yard under the water hose, or inside in the bathtub :eusa_think:

If it wasn't 100 degrees outside the choice would be easy.
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Re: Fluorescent T9 Circline Light Fixtures

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Smucky wrote: Tue Jul 29, 2025 11:30 pm
NinjaPoodle wrote: Tue Jul 29, 2025 9:31 pm
Smucky wrote: Tue Jul 29, 2025 3:14 pm But thinking about cutting some vent holes into the glass shade. I got a bit for it. And an old beer bottle to practice on :sly:

But still, took forever to find that shade and I paid $47 for it. Would hate to break it :ugh: but in my mind some vent holes look so aesthetic :science:
Don't you destroy the look of the glass lamp shade if you drill in them?
Perhaps, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder :sun:

Question is, do I drill the holes out in the yard under the water hose, or inside in the bathtub :eusa_think:

If it wasn't 100 degrees outside the choice would be easy.
Something tells me that you are going fuck up doing this. Maybe you should just leave it alone. If you went with LEDs you wouldn't have this problem but you went with ancient tech. Just don't use florescent lights which are today inferior to to LEDs. So just let the lamps cook and use up those florescent lamps and the buy LEDs.
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Re: Fluorescent T9 Circline Light Fixtures

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:rofl:
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Re: Fluorescent T9 Circline Light Fixtures

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Digging for details on lamp temperature and its effects. Seems there is something:
Screenshot_20250730_215323.png
From:
Thorn Lighting Journal 3.pdf
(2.9 MiB) Downloaded 2 times
Good enough for an excuse. Lets cut some holes :sly:
PXL_20250731_001257251.TS_720.webm
(2.39 MiB) Downloaded 7 times
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Re: Fluorescent T9 Circline Light Fixtures

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And about 1.5 hours later :ugh:
PXL_20250731_013529066.jpg
PXL_20250731_013712974.jpg
The cores:
PXL_20250731_014137794.jpg
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Re: Fluorescent T9 Circline Light Fixtures

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Ok final temperature report. Before the holes were added, the whole lamp surface would basically be at 130*. Now after a few hours of run time, seems the surface is between 115-120*. I guess that is an improvement. :shrug: in open air, it seems to be around 105*.
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Re: Fluorescent T9 Circline Light Fixtures

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Having trouble getting to sleep. Guess all that drilling got me wired. Just drilled the wife for an hour also :scaredjerk:
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Re: Fluorescent T9 Circline Light Fixtures

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Congratulations, you have destroyed beautiful glass lamp shades because of some idea that they will overheat. Also now all insects in the world will find their way into those lamps. If you would have gone LED, you could have saved yourself several hours and heat paranoia.
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Re: Fluorescent T9 Circline Light Fixtures

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Figured you'd say that about my art :fine:

Lucky for you, I'm about out of stuff to mess with on the lamp. Only thing left is to make the home built CD powered spectrometer :elefant:
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Re: Fluorescent T9 Circline Light Fixtures

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Going to work on the CD powered spectrometer. Got a cereal box finally:
PXL_20250806_233059470.jpg
Stole it from grandpa's pantry next door. It was covered in dust and had "Best by Aug 13 20" on top, what ever that means. I doubt he'll miss it. :sly:
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Re: Fluorescent T9 Circline Light Fixtures

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Also, raided grandma's computer desk for donors :sly:
PXL_20250806_233521428.jpg
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Re: Fluorescent T9 Circline Light Fixtures

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Smucky wrote: Wed Aug 06, 2025 11:33 pm Going to work on the CD powered spectrometer. Got a cereal box finally:

PXL_20250806_233059470.jpg

Stole it from grandpa's pantry next door. It was covered in dust and had "Best by Aug 13 20" on top, what ever that means. I doubt he'll miss it. :sly:
So you're really making a diffraction based spectrometer in a cereal housing?
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Re: Fluorescent T9 Circline Light Fixtures

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Smucky wrote: Wed Aug 06, 2025 11:44 pm Also, raided grandma's computer desk for donors :sly:

PXL_20250806_233521428.jpg
1000 hours for free with AOL, now that's were the times. :fakepussy:
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Re: Fluorescent T9 Circline Light Fixtures

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NinjaPoodle wrote: Thu Aug 07, 2025 12:02 am
Smucky wrote: Wed Aug 06, 2025 11:33 pm Going to work on the CD powered spectrometer. Got a cereal box finally:

PXL_20250806_233059470.jpg

Stole it from grandpa's pantry next door. It was covered in dust and had "Best by Aug 13 20" on top, what ever that means. I doubt he'll miss it. :sly:
So you're really making a diffraction based spectrometer in a cereal housing?

Yea, but it is kind of disappointing.
PXL_20250807_154445720.jpg
Took forever to really figure out the angle to hold it. I'm thinking I might have just made the slit too small. Claude.ai acted like the smaller the slit, the better the "resolution". For the most part, it just projects an image of the actual light bulb onto the CD, but with the right angle, you can kind of get the spectrum to smear out. This is the fluorescent lamp. You can see the blue and green "mercury lines", but it was extremely difficult to get the right image on the CD and have the camera focus right:

PXL_20250807_005232710.jpg
PXL_20250807_005232710.jpg (52.92 KiB) Viewed 45 times
And if you smash your face into the box, you get a slightly different image
PXL_20250807_010539070.jpg
And these are the 5000k led bulbs in the bathroom
PXL_20250807_011018504.jpg
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Re: Fluorescent T9 Circline Light Fixtures

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I could tweak it a bit, but I've really completely lost interest in this. Was mostly just killing time while I babysat for a bit yesterday :shrug:
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Re: Fluorescent T9 Circline Light Fixtures

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Felt an autistic splurge to look more into fluorescent lamp start up theories, etc. Figured I'd make some annoying gifs of 240fps video of what I got. Everything I read says a lamp should not start until the filaments are 600+ degrees celsius which normally takes half a second at least. Here the lamp is fired up in under 40ms. Maybe I should drop more money on ballasts :sherlock:
output1a.gif
output1a.gif (300.24 KiB) Viewed 36 times
output2a.gif
output2a.gif (283.21 KiB) Viewed 36 times
output3a.gif
output3a.gif (269.06 KiB) Viewed 36 times
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Re: Fluorescent T9 Circline Light Fixtures

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Spent probably 12 hours last week reading up on fluorescent starting methods. I think I’m about done with that. I think my autistic obsession was just fueled by the fact that fluorescent starting methods are just grossly over simplified. And for me personally, I just don’t like having an incomplete understanding of something. So when you have a starting method such as “rapid start” that is clearly described but doesn’t match the current starting method of my electronic ballast that is described as “preheat rapid start”, that just sent me down a rabbit hole. Thankfully with the wayback machine/archive.org I was able to find some old websites that had decent descriptions of the current evolution of ballasts in the late 1990’s.

The first question to answer, is why is a ballast needed? Unlike incandescent bulbs when switched on, have a resistance that rapidly increases, fluorescent lamps are the other way around. Once a fluorescent lamps begins to flow current, the resistance to current rapidly goes down. Hence a ballast is needed to provide a steady current consumption otherwise the lamp would just quickly burn up.

Now as to starting methods.

First there was the old “preheat method” which used the starting circuit everyone is familiar with. When switched on, current was initially directed onto the filaments of the lamps to heat them up. After a second or so, the starting circuit opens, which causes the magnetic field now built up in the ballast to collapse and if it lines up properly with the current A/C phase, a couple hundred volts of potential are placed onto the ends of the lamp with the end goal of “striking” an arc and the lamp turning on.

The next evolution of starting methods after that was the “rapid start” method. This did not require a separate starting circuit. Instead, when a “rapid start” ballast was switched on, current was applied to both the filaments and the lamp ends. As the filaments heated, the required “striking” voltage of the lamp would decrease and would eventually get down to the same potential voltage being applied at the lamp ends where the lamp would then “strike” and turn on.

But both of these methods are very old tech and they had two purposes: to be very cheap (both preheat and rapid ballasts are nothing more than wires wrapped around iron) and combined with red hot filaments, to bring the striking voltage of a lamp to something below 300 volts. (because there was no cheap way to get voltage above 300 at the time)

After 1990, things began to change. With semi-conductor price drops, it was very cheap and easy with just a couple of transistors and inductors to make a circuit that would take the 120 volt line input, convert it to DC, then convert that to an oscillating sine wave in the kilohertz range. Under no load, these types of circuits have the behavior of quickly producing hundreds and/or even thousands of volts. A prime candidate for starting a fluorescent lamp as when the lamp is first switched on, the circuit is seen purely as open, voltage quickly rises and nearly instantly strikes an arc and the lamp is now on.

The question now becomes, what kind of start up method is this? The term “instant start” actually refers to another starting method that was popularized in the 1940’s. But “instant start” in this context referred to an entire fluorescent system requiring an “instant start” ballast and “instant start” lamps. The lamps in this case had no filaments, just a single pin on either end of the lamp. This system is so old I can’t really find any kind of schematic of a true 1940’s “instant start” ballast but I believe it was just a transformer hooked up straight to the lamps in order to bump up the voltage. This system was simpler, but had a reputation of lamps not lasting as long in frequently switched off and on situations. As such, and this is purely my opinion, I believe ballast manufactures have avoided labeling ballasts as “instant start” to avoid confusion and reputation with the older system.

Also, there are many standards that ballasts and lamps must follow such as:

ANSI C82.2-2002, American National Standard Methods of Measurement of Fluorescent Lamp Ballasts
ANSI C82.3-2002, American National Standard Specification for Fluorescent Lamp Reference Ballasts
ANSI C82.13-2002, Definitions for fluorescent lamps and ballasts

So one must abide by the rules, and as such it was easiest to have a ballast fall under “rapid start” than any other. The standards are all behind paywalls so I can’t really verify anything, but I assume “rapid start” is simply defined as a starting method whereby one applies voltage to the filaments and the lamp ends simultaneously. Which with an electronic ballast, that is not hard to do as one just needs to connect the filaments in series with a small capacitor which will bleed a negotiable amount of current through them and thus meet the definition. But this is just my opinion.

There seems to be some folklore about starting up lamps without proper filament heating time. Proper heating leads to more on off cycles (but not necessarily longer lamp on hours). It seems both instant starting and rapid starting can give around 15k on/off cycles. There are a few sources proving this, but this one seems to offer the most details as it seems to clearly be testing regular "rapid start" lamps with an "instant start" ballast:
Screenshot_20250811_214025.png

With all that said and doing some math, I'm not usually turning this office light on more than once a day. Typically one cycle a day, sometime two or three. So being generous, a max of 1000 cycles a year would be 15 years to get to 15k cycles. The lamp it self it be dead long before then so I probably shouldn't be worrying about whether my filaments are properly heated or not :shrug:

Took me like 5 hours to write this up :spinner:
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Re: Fluorescent T9 Circline Light Fixtures

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So many hours and you still failed. If you gone with LEDs you would have saved almost one week in man hours. You even proved for yourself that the florescent lamps sucks.
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Re: Fluorescent T9 Circline Light Fixtures

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Also, LED lamps have much better light distribution because there are more possibilities. Also, mercury free.
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Re: Fluorescent T9 Circline Light Fixtures

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Well, Smucky, under other circumstances I like to think we might have been able to work together in an atmosphere of mutual trust and respect. Certainly, judging from your brief tenure at Mastabeta while Roundhouse was its Administrator, you showed every promise of becoming a valuable and productive contributor to the process of Mastabeta. And yet... I'm not sure what spurred you to it... but there is really no place in this enterprise for a rogue IT wannabe.

Your mentors are partly to blame, of course. My disappointment in the public school system and PUDAK is far greater than my sorrow over your unfortunate choice of career path. In a way, I suppose you could not have done otherwise. Who knows what seeds of iconoclasm they planted when you were young and gullible. But while they certainly share a great part of the responsibility for the recent troubles, it is you alone who have chosen to act with such willful disregard for humanity's future.

Tell me, Smucky, if you can: you have destroyed so much. What is it, exactly, that you have created? Can you name even one thing? I thought not.
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Re: Fluorescent T9 Circline Light Fixtures

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NinjaPoodle wrote: Tue Aug 12, 2025 3:05 pm Well, Smucky, under other circumstances I like to think we might have been able to work together in an atmosphere of mutual trust and respect. Certainly, judging from your brief tenure at Mastabeta while Roundhouse was its Administrator, you showed every promise of becoming a valuable and productive contributor to the process of Mastabeta. And yet... I'm not sure what spurred you to it... but there is really no place in this enterprise for a rogue IT wannabe.

Your mentors are partly to blame, of course. My disappointment in the public school system and PUDAK is far greater than my sorrow over your unfortunate choice of career path. In a way, I suppose you could not have done otherwise. Who knows what seeds of iconoclasm they planted when you were young and gullible. But while they certainly share a great part of the responsibility for the recent troubles, it is you alone who have chosen to act with such willful disregard for humanity's future.

Tell me, Smucky, if you can: you have destroyed so much. What is it, exactly, that you have created? Can you name even one thing? I thought not.
Is that AI? :confused:
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Re: Fluorescent T9 Circline Light Fixtures

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Anyway, found the datasheet from philips for their pl-c 26 watt lamp (aka CFQ26W G24q) actually has some numbers for both instant and preheat starts :sherlock:
Screenshot_20250812_164010.png
Screenshot_20250812_164010.png (43.87 KiB) Viewed 14 times
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Re: Fluorescent T9 Circline Light Fixtures

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Smucky wrote: Tue Aug 12, 2025 9:42 pm Is that AI? :confused:
Let's say its from a certain dr. who doesn't like guys with crowbars. I can't believe I have to so obvious.